Motor Specs

[Hurstolds1973]

I am getting Rusty's original motor rebuilt. Can someone please tell me if this qoute looks good? I am no motor head and all the motors I have bought have been crate jobs. Specs and price seem fair to me? Please help..

Please review the following quote and specifications to your custom-built
455 OLDS performance long block: 370-420hp with 450 ft lbs torque


 455 block bored, honed, decked and align honed
 Performance camshaft:
224/234 @ .050
.520 lift 112 lobe center
 New performance cam bearings
 Balanced rotating assembly with balancer ( add 400.00)
Reground 4.25” stroke crankshaft
Resized rods with ARP® rod bolts
New performance bearings
 Performance pistons with Molly® rings
9.5 to 1 compression ratio
 New performance timing set
 New performance high volume oil pump
 Cylinder heads
2.07”/1.62” steel valves ( add 160.00 for stainless)
110 lbs valve springs
Head bolts(add 150.00 for ARP)
3 angle seats
bronze guides, positive seals
 New push rods, rocker stands and stamped rockers
 New performance gasket set
 Painted Black
• Stage 2 Porting (add $ 695.00)

Price 2699.95

[ragz442]

That seems like a really good deal to me, I'd make sure they're familiar with Olds motors.

[Doug Blake]

Sounds alright.
Im sure your trying to keep it "looking" original, why you don't mention getting a bigger Moroso Oil Pan? When going with a cam with 0.500" lift or more, aftermarket adjustable rocker arms must be used because there is no way for the stock rocker to compensate for the lift geometry. So get rid of the stamped steel rockers and get modern Roller Rockers by Harland Sharp.

Besides the ARP Rod bolts, have them deburr and polish the casting mark along the sides, and machine a slot 0.50" WIDE and only 0.010" - 0.012" DEEP relief's on outside of rods! On the Cam Valley remove any burs and make sure that the return holes down to the crankshaft area are free of flashing and opened up to their full dimensions. Polish the valley. Also carefully polish and relieve the oiling channel that the oil pump bolts to on the rear main cap.

As for the Crank, have them cross-drill the main journals at 2 & 4 (1, 3, & 5 usually are). Then chamfer the oil passages, and deburr the crank. Plus add oil restrictors for 2, 3, and 4 main bearings, and modify main bearings. And elongate the lifter valley oil return downward to help oil to the pan faster.

Every shop inflates the part prices a little. You could get ARP Head bolts $73, ARP Main Studs $60, and ARP Harmonic Balancer Bolt $20 for the price of what they are charging you for just the head bolts.

Spend the money for porting! Use 45* angles on the valves, Undercut the intake valves between 18* and 24*. Cut the exhaust valves 15* to 26*. Both intake and exhaust valve seats in the head should have the following angles: 33* top cut; 45* primary cut; 58* undercut; 70* bottom cut. But also mill the "J" heads only 0.030" for the street to get 9.95:1 compression.

[zodiacblue442]

Good posts from others... my .02... don't go with too aggressive of a cam for a street driven car or you may run into low vacuum problems and your power brakes won't work good. The idle will also be lopey and rough which is annoying for a street driven car IMO.

Also, unless you get an extra capacity oil pan, DO NOT have them install a high volume oil pump! A standard Melling pump is all you need and will work great. High volume pumps flow way too much oil to the top end and starve the bottom end. The bottom end is where you want most of the oil. The brand new high volume pump I had in one of my 455's also did not produce good oil pressure at all.

Timing set... make sure it's a true roller or true double roller timing set. Cloyes makes the best timing sets IMO.

Are you running J code cyl. heads? The valve sizes listed are for "big valve" heads that were available in C, E, K and Ka, etc. to name a few. You couldn't get the larger valves in J's though. You may want to have the shop double check the sizes.

Price doesn't seem too bad for everything listed. Restoring a car keeps your wallet light, doesn't it! :eek: Have fun with your project. You are doing a fantastic job!

[Hurstolds1973]

Thanks alot for the advice.
I have heard about cross drilling the Journals before and I think I understand why. As for the HV oil pump if they insist on it I will purchase an aftermarket larger pan. It is a Melling in the Qoute for the oil pump and timing set...
Yes I am going to run the original J heads with the stage 2 porting which includes milling them. I'm going to go with the stainless valves to I think.
SHould I spend the 400 to have it balanced???
Thanks!!!!

[djb56]

The 224@50 wont hurt the vaccum. If you go 230 and over then you will have vaccum problems with power brakes unless you get a vaccum canister.

[73431Cutlass]

Thats a cheap build! I have a .505/.505 with 224/236 @ 108 centerline cam in my 431. I have a small stall and it does ok in most traffic, it will load up after 10 minutes or so. I spent way more than that on mine.... :-(

[Doug Blake]

Joe,

Go with Ferrea Stainless valves, All ARP bolts, and Clevite 77 bearings, and definately get it balanced! and afterwards get it on a dyno to break it in, and tune it before installing into the car. That way it'll be broken in, and if you run into any problems; ie leaks you can take care of them right away, then drop into car and enjoy.

A critical issue in an Olds block, and especially the 455, is ensuring that you don't send too much oil to the cam, at the expense of the oil needed to lubricate the large 3.0 inch main journals and a 2.5 inch rod journal. That's another reason why you need to install the oil restrictors (get them from Olds Performance Products), as well as any improvements to help the oiling. With a stock pan and a huge volume oil pump it'll be sucked dry every time that engine hits 4500 rpm. The stock pan is only recommended where clearance is an issue or you are restoring your car to stock specifications. After all the money you are going to spend on this killer short block, do you want to throw it away by a $54 oil pump? Spend the money and buy the Moroso 7-qt Oil Pan #20482, with Melling M22-FHV Oil Pump, Use Pickup #24461, and also consider Crank Scraper and a windage tray. But if you wish to run your oiling system as such as the factory designed, than by all means feel free to do so.

Cross drilling the crank ensure's that sufficient oil leaves the reservoir in the crank throws and keeps the bearings lubricated. This will give the main journal a constant supply of pressurized oil, as at least one of these oil passsages are exposed to the bearing shell oil grove at all times.

I agree with zodiacblue442 i recommend ONLY Cloyes True Roller Timing Set #9-1113. Don't skimp out here as a cheap part will likely cost you time and money. We have learned that cheap timing chains can be incorrectly marked or otherwise incorrectly machined, either retarding or advancing the cam as much as 10* to 12*.

[W451973]

Good advise. Joe, I have a few thoughts.

1- What are your plans, is this a race motor, street/strip or basic rebuild ?
2- What is the shops reputation ?
3- Do they know Olds motors ?
4- I would ask for a parts WITH price breakdown. Alot of that is crap. You want details, brand, paret numbers and costs.
5- That cam is a generic grind and is junk. But it will not have any vaccum issues to worry about.
6- What are your plans for exhaust, converter and gear ? All very important before building your motor.
7- If you are in question about any of the above, I would look into to spending the extra $ and taking it to Trovato in NY. It would be better in the long run to invest and rely on someone who ACTUALLY knows Oldsmobiles, then a generic shop that has "rebuilt" a few. The extra $ outwieghs the trouble and hassles in the long run.

[Hurstolds1973]

Thanks Dennis!
I was looking over the BTR website tonite again. Your are right though all of the brand names were pulled from what I listed. I have the list of parts now. I was just going to do a basic rebuild with a little extra zip nothing radical. The shop I listed is does all motor rebuilds. They do about a 1/2 dozen 455's a year they told me. This shop was Precision. I have a few qoutes about the same but not from an Olds specialty company yet.

[Hurstolds1973]

Good advise. Joe, I have a few thoughts.
If you are in question about any of the above, I would look into to spending the extra $ and taking it to Trovato in NY. It would be better in the long run to invest and rely on someone who ACTUALLY knows Oldsmobiles, then a generic shop that has "rebuilt" a few. The extra $ outwieghs the trouble and hassles in the long run.
Well its been a long time since I first started my engine rebuild quest! I have been talking to Bill Trovato (BTR) for a few weeks now. We have come up with what I call a mild stock looking rebuild for my 455. Arrangement have been made for the motor to be picked up very shortly and then I will have all the specs. Thanks for the advice!:D

[W451973]

You are more then welcome ole buddy. You will not be dissapointed. Bill is a great guy. He knows his shyt. And if you or anyone has a little extra $$ I suggest buying his book.

[Hurstolds1973]

Ok I have a few questions.... Before it leaves for the machine shop....
I was asked to brake down some of the engine so the guy transporting it could move the parts easily without a forklift/crane.
I'm thinking this motor may have been rebuilt. It was clean and no wear on anything that I can see.... lifters, pushrods, rocker arms and cylinders real clean no marks or sluge.....
What kind of markings does the 455 pistons have on the top of them? B?
Did they have oil trays under the intake manifold?

[W451973]

Can you post some pics ? Stock Oldsmobile pistons will have a letter designation for the piston size. Such as B, C, D and the block will also have a letter stamped next to the bore for the bore size. Usually aftermarket pistons will have the over bore size stamped on top of them. Such as .030 etc. And some will even have the part number. Such as L2323F. Others will have it underneith. Now I cannot speculate for custom race pistons like SRP because I've never seen any up close or personal. I've owned lots of Aries, TRW, Speedpro, Badger etc.

As for the tray. Do you mean the aluminum valley tray under the intake or the long skinny goofy looking thing held down to the block by a couple of screws ?

Did it run before you tore it down ?

[Hurstolds1973]

Dennis,
I was told the motor ran when parked and that it had may have been bored over .30. However it sat for a long time next to that barn. I have only had and olds 350 open before and it was a long time ago. The pistons have B on them and I see no other markings. Could it still be bored out? Idunno...
As for the the other I have never seen another motor with the oil restricting Valley pan I guess its called under the intake manifold and rest between the heads and motor...
Other then dirty as crap water coming out of the water jackets when I rolled it over I can hardley any signs of wear or tear????
Ill post pics in a bit , Im heading to the garage now....

[W451973]

Post some good pics and we'll see if we can figure things out. That water sounds bad. You better have the block checked for cracks. I would visually go over it first before you send it. Check around the bores and freeze plugs, inside the lifter valley. Those are the most common places for cracks. How did the oil look ? Did it have composite head gaskets or steel shim ? Steel shim would indicate it was probably never apart. Composite would indicate it was.

[Hurstolds1973]

Ok here it is...

[Hurstolds1973]

Another thing I found odd was when I turn it over to inspect the rods and caps each rod was stamped with its cylinder position number and same number next to main cap??? Like I said 1st Olds motor I have rebuilt in a long time......

[zodiacblue442]

Joe, From the pics it looks like the 455 wasn't ever apart. The pistons are low compression "deep dish". Connecting rods and caps have cyl. number cast into them so they can stay a matched set.

As Dennis said, have block and heads checked (magnafluxed) for cracks.

[Hurstolds1973]

Dennis, Everything in the lifter area looked real good. The freeze plugs are all still good. I am having it checked before being rebuilt.
Gary, The only other Olds I have cracked open was a 350 and thats probably why I dont remember the valley pan. LONG time ago!

I was really suprised everything was as clean and appeared as the owner said it was running and parked....Everything roatated nice and shows no wear on the lifters, pushrods, cam or cylinder walls.
Thanks GUYS! Off to the machine shop if it doesnt snow this week, I hope!

[xxkozxx]

All 455's use a valley pan, 350's do not. Connecting rods and caps have cyl. number cast into them so they can stay a matched set.

My 77' 350 had a valley pan.

[Cutlassefi]

So did my 72 350 and every other Olds I've ever torn apart.

[Hurstolds1973]

Thanks Guys! Like I said its been a long time since I had any motors opened up and the last was a 350 OLDS and I didnt remember it having one. It might have... Long time ago with short memory....

[W451973]

Definately stock pistons. The valley pans are used in small blocks and big blocks stock. Just have the block and heads checked for cracks and you shoud be good to go.

So if you don't mind me asking ? What plan did you and Bill come up with for the build ?

[zodiacblue442]

Last 350 I had torn apart was years ago also. I've been playing with 425's and 455's recently. Sorry for the wrong info. :o I went back to my other post and deleted the wrong info. So yes, the small blocks DO use a valley pan too. I hope that didn't mess anybody up. I hate wrong info on sites and this time I was guilty.

[W451973]

Last 350 I had torn apart was years ago also. I've been playing with 425's and 455's recently. Sorry for the wrong info. :o I went back to my other post and deleted the wrong info. So yes, the small blocks DO use a valley pan too. I hope that didn't mess anybody up. I hate wrong info on sites and this time I was guilty.

Relax. It's no big deal. No harm, no foul. I know what you mean about wrong info being spread but me thinks in this case you getsza pass. :D

And I confess I've been wrong before. Once or twice. :p More if you ask my wife. :o

[Hurstolds1973]

Well 3-4 weeks turned into 6-7..No big deal....
I guess I just learned another lesson in saving money. The engine is done and home. However the 73 only valve covers are now gone and so are are few other small itmes that went with the motor. Oil tube, dipstick..... and I asked to save some of the old parts, gone. The motor is not the right color so Ill repaint it and when I got it unwrapped I noticed the new valve cover is dented......Save a few dollars and ya always get it in the rear end! A reputable local Olds rebuilder also. He had several he was working on in the shop also. I hope his mechanical work exceeds his finishing touches.....
Shoulda ...woulda ...coulda..... OK OK i didnt go with BTR!!! Dennis you may now commence with a gigantic bitch slap of me! I'l post pics later when I get over my temporary minor set back...lol :D

[MrRocket]

Tell me more about the 73 only valve covers. Never heard that before. What was the difference between the 73 and the rest of our era (74-77)?

[resmith]

Tell me more about the 73 only valve covers. Never heard that before. What was the difference between the 73 and the rest of our era (74-77)?

73 (and some 74) engines had OLDSMOBILE stamped on the valve covers.

[Hurstolds1973]

73 (and some 74) engines had OLDSMOBILE stamped on the valve covers.

Sorry that is what I was trying to say.......

[Hurstolds1973]

This is what they look like....
Sorry I stole part of a pic of someone elses Beautiful engine....

[Piazza]

Ok Joe I am getting ready to talk to a few builders in my neck of the woods.
I am talking to Joe Mondello next week. anything i should ask. what is the HP rating you are going for? I have never done this what is the average price to do a motor? are you changing your heads and manifold.

[Hurstolds1973]

Ok Joe I am getting ready to talk to a few builders in my neck of the woods.
I am talking to Joe Mondello next week. anything i should ask. what is the HP rating you are going for? I have never done this what is the average price to do a motor? are you changing your heads and manifold.

I guess you cant go wrong with Mondello... When I started to get quotes I decided To stay stock looking . This to me meant running my Q jet, stock J heads , stock intake and exhaust manifolds. Everything that was on the car when it rolled of the showroom floor."including the valve covers dammmit!!!!" Ahum.... My motor was built to be in the 425hp range plus some head work.(a little port and polish) I will post pics tonight....
I recieved prices from 4000- 11000 for a complete turn key motor and dyno... With the added work and carb work over 5000 out the door for me....

[Hurstolds1973]

Pics at shop....

[damaged442]

Lookin gooooood!

[Piazza]

looks great and thanks fot the info. Are you assembling the rest and installing it your self.

[Doug Blake]

Joe, since Dennis didn't step up yet, I'd like to be the 1st to bitch slap ya for not going to OPP, or BTR to "build" your engine, over there!!

That sucks you didnt get your old parts back. Hope it runs good for ya. Did you have it dyno'd?
Doug

[MrRocket]

This is what they look like....
Sorry I stole part of a pic of someone elses Beautiful engine....

Thanks. The reason I asked was because I thought they were on 74's also, as I have a pair of them from my 74. Were they smooth stampings from 75-77 then?

[W451973]

OK OK i didnt go with BTR!!! Dennis you may now commence with a gigantic bitch slap of me! I'l post pics later when I get over my temporary minor set back...lol :D

Well Joe, it is your wallet. As long as you are happy, thats all that counts. Contact the builder and ask for your parts or a partial refund. Good luck.

[Hurstolds1973]

looks great and thanks fot the info. Are you assembling the rest and installing it your self.

Yes I am going to attempt the remaining assembly myself. With help from all of you I suspect also......

[Hurstolds1973]

Hope it runs good for ya. Did you have it dyno'd?
Doug

Nope..........:eek:

[Firethorne77]

Joe-
Send that shop the bill for the valve covers. I'd be absolutely steaming fruckin mad. :mad:

The rest will be sorted out I am sure.

[Paul Rice]

Hey Joe, did you have your egine rebuilt at Eddies? There is a thread on Oldspower.com that mentions them. Your old car is running fine and I've had it out quite a few times and I'm have a great time in it. I did replace the tires, that right from never righted itself, so the next time you see it, you will notice Radial T/A's on it. I can't believe that sometimes I get more attention from some younger guys, (20's), then I get from people my own age that would have grown up with this era car.

http://www.oldspower.com/vb/showthread.php?t=56896&page=3

[Hurstolds1973]

Hey Joe, did you have your egine rebuilt at Eddies? There is a thread on Oldspower.com that mentions them. http://www.oldspower.com/vb/showthread.php?t=56896&page=3

Yes Eddies rebuilt my motor. I was a little upset when I picked it up due to a small few items. I was happy with there service and as long as it purs like a raped Ape when it gets started.... I'll be GOOD..... Then I will give the thumbs up or down. They were reasonably priced amd are 2 hours away from me so I hope to use them again.
You ever you use them Paul?

[Hurstolds1973]

Got the oil tube and dipstick back today........ I have a set of OLds scripted valve covers also that I started blasting today.
Slowly getting things back on it after sandblasting and repainting....

[ragz442]

The motor looks sweet Joe! Who did you buy the Olds blue paint from? Looks dead on. Hope it runs as good as it looks.

[Hurstolds1973]

The motor looks sweet Joe! Who did you buy the Olds blue paint from? Looks dead on. Hope it runs as good as it looks.

Do you think so? I think it looks to light?
They had a custom color mixed. I ordered 3 cans from Super cars unlimited to check if its a perfect match...
Whats every one think???? please.....

[ragz442]

Yea, that pic is does look a little light. Sometimes it's hard to tell with pics on the computer. Stuff looks different on my home pc compared to my work pc. Super cars blue is supposed to be a good match.

The more I look at it, the last pic looks alot like Pontiac's metallic blue. That you can buy at any parts house in dupli-color, but not Olds blue :mad:.

[Hurstolds1973]

I have the new paint now. It looks correct to me now! It matches the paint on the Pope and the flex plate from Rusty......:D

[W451973]

It's lookin perty. :)

[zates]

Really nice! That second color looks dead on.

[76oldswarrior]

Hey Joe. Second color looks better. All the 455 blue paints look different. I used the Tamraz paint. Its ok. I noticed the EGR blockoff you have on there. Summit sells a blockoff plate that fits nice on the opening. You just have to drill out the one bolt hole to make it larger. The paint on the blockoff will just turn brown. I had my blockoff and choke heater tube powdercoated.

[Hurstolds1973]

I noticed the EGR blockoff you have on there. Summit sells a blockoff plate that fits nice on the opening. You just have to drill out the one bolt hole to make it larger. The paint on the blockoff will just turn brown. I had my blockoff and choke heater tube powdercoated.

I was thinking about putting the egr back on. Will this take away from performance or just mount it and plug it so it looks original?

[76oldswarrior]

You can put it back on. Just plug the vacuum tube so it doesnt open. It wont take away from performance. Its not like the newer computer controlled vehicles.

[Hurstolds1973]

You can put it back on. Just plug the vacuum tube so it doesnt open. It wont take away from performance. Its not like the newer computer controlled vehicles.

So I can put the line on just plug it somewhere between the 2 ends correct? This was my intention just didnt know if i needed it to work.. Remember Im not a mechanic... I will have more questions ..LOL

[76oldswarrior]

I would get a small vacuum port rubber cap and maybe slide it into the end of the vac line near the egr to block the vacuum. They come pretty small. Ive picked them up at parts place. They came in a package of all different size caps.. If you cant get a cap small enough. Just use your imagination what you could stuff in there. You just need to block any vacuum.